Reactionary Note 3 – Karpas

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1. Yehoshua says

   April 15, 2025 at 7:44 pm

   The Ritva writes (in his Haggadah) that the first dipping is with bitter greens. In fact, he discusses why we don’t make a bracha of אקב”ו לאכול ירקות מרים. The same is written in ספר הפרדס לרש”י, ספר ארחות חיים and the כלבו. Additionally, the list of greens for כרפס given by the Geonim and the piyyut for שבת הגדול seem to indicate the same. And the list given by Rav Amram gaon and the piyyut includes חסא (in Rav Amran Gaon’s list חסא is first). This is the source of the once universal custom to use vegetables from the parsley family (celery or parsley) or radish.
   The Ritva writes (פסחים לט,א) in the name of his Rebbi the רא”ה that all bitter vegetables are good for Maror. This seems to be the opinion of Rashi Al HaTorah (as noted by the Minchas Chinuch) too (and this seems to be the opinion of the Yerushalmi). And the כלבו’s list of vegetables which are good for Maror includes גרגירא וכוסברתא (which are on Rav Amram and the piyyut’s list for the first dipping).
   It is unclear what these Rishonim did with the Bavli’s injuction not to use חזרת for the first dipping. Perhaps they felt that Rav HIsda’s issue of לאחר שמילא כריסו מהן חוזר ומברך is only when uses the same vegetable for both dippings (see Tosfos there).
   However, it is clear that one can be a ‘normie’, following the halacha of the Talmud Bavli as understood by the Geonim and Rishonim, and using the customary vegetables for the first dipping as codified by the Geonim and Rishonim, and yet still use vegetables that are כשר for Maror according to the Yerushalmi and many Rishonim. In fact, even following normative Bavli halacha and custom it appears that this is the correct approach.

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   • Gavriel says

     April 23, 2025 at 5:12 pm

     Sorry for the delay. I don’t check this website so frequently nowadays, and when I do I have to wade through hundreds of spam comments.

     Anyway, great sources, thankyou!

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